"Is There A Reason For It?"

COLBY

So, in the spring of 2025, the Trump Administration was both revoking student visas, and also terminating records in the SEVIS database. 

 But Government officials were doing another thing too. They were talking about it.

 One of the people talking about it most was the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio. Rubio plays many roles in the Trump Administration. But one of his most visible is explaining and defending President Trump’s agenda. 

And during the visa turmoil, he was doing just that.

And he was justifying these governmental actions in a very specific way.

MARCO RUBIO

I think it’s crazy — I think it’s stupid for any country in the world to welcome people into your country that are going to go to your universities as visitors — they’re visitors! And say: I’m going to your universities to start a riot. I’m going to your universities to take over a library and harass people. I don’t care what movement you’re involved in. 

Why would any country in the world allow people to come and disrupt — we gave you a visa to come and study, and get a degree. Not become a social activist that tears up our University campuses.

COLBY

You’ve heard part of this event before. This was Rubio talking to reporters during a press conference in March 2025. So, before students at Fordham were directly affected. 

He was on a diplomatic trip to Guyana, a country in South America.

MARCO RUBIO

Every country in the world has a right to decide who comes in as a visitor and who doesn’t. If you invite me into your home because I say I want to come to your house for dinner. And I go to your house and start putting mud on your couch and spray painting your kitchen, I bet you you’re going to kick me out. Well, we’re going to do the same thing if you come to the United States as a visitor and create a ruckus for us. 

COLBY

Remember, this is him answering a question about that Turkish student in Massachusetts, Rumeyza Ozturk. Federal agents had arrested her just days before because of a pro-Palestinian Op-Ed she had written.

And now, here he is again. Talking to reporters in a televised Cabinet Meeting last April.

MARCO RUBIO

If you come to this country as a student, we expect you to go to class and study and get a degree. If you come here to vandalize a library, take over campus and do all kinds of crazy things, we’re going to get rid of these people. And we’re going to continue to do it. So, when we identify lunatics like these, we take away their student visa. 

COLBY

There’s a pattern here. He’s justifying the revocations by saying these students did something to deserve it.

Marco Rubio is explaining that the State Department is specifically revoking the visas of Pro-Palestinian student protesters. 

Now, this isn’t us assuming anything. This was a stated goal of the Trump Administration.

 Just a few days after Trump took office he signed an executive order aimed at revoking student visas of pro-Palestinian protesters. The White House press release about the order makes an explicit promise.

Here’s the quote, attributed to Trump. "To all the resident aliens who joined in the pro-jihadist protests, we put you on notice: come 2025, we will find you, and we will deport you. I will also quickly cancel the student visas of all Hamas sympathizers on college campuses, which have been infested with radicalism like never before."

So here’s what happened: Fordham students had already been hearing about visa turmoil at other campuses, where the cases often involved pro-Palestinian activists. 

There were also news stories at that time that the SEVIS terminations were happening to students who had gotten speeding tickets or other minor infractions. 

But from the conversations we had, for a lot of students at Fordham, the activism justification was the bigger story.

And so when the situation reached Fordham, a lot of people assumed the student had been targeted for some kind of pro-Palestinian activism. 

JUAN

In order for someone to get deported, and to get detained, in a campus, I think the US government has already kept tabs on that person. And has already maintained a profile. And has been monitoring the activities of that person.

COLBY

That’s Juan. An international student at Fordham. From Latin America. 

JUAN

You know, there’s a lot of policies, regulations, rules, that you have to follow, as an international student, in order to keep your visa status active. You know?

COLBY

Juan explained that for him, it made the most sense that the students had somehow gotten on the government’s radar. And that’s why they were affected. 

JUAN

It’s a tough situation. It’s a really tough situation. But at the same time, if you’re on a visa, you have to respect what the country is telling you to do.

...

They also have to follow the rules that my government and my country instills on them.

...

I personally think that, when you come to the US as an international student, you have to be aware of your situation at all times. Just to maintain your status as a student. And just to make sure you know why you’re coming to the US to study. When I applied to Fordham, I knew that I was going to be very responsible, in that sense, you know?

...

COLBY

Do you mean responsible in the sense that you’re not going to protest? Is that what we’re dancing around? 

JUAN

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is my personal opinion. If you are an international student, you have to acknowledge the risks. And you have to make sure that your priority, when you come to the US, is to study. That’s my opinion, you know?

COLBY

I do want to say one thing before we move on. This is a fine position to have. It’s legitimate to hold this view. 

But legally speaking, protesting, even criticizing the government — that’s not off limits for international students. The first amendment protections of free speech apply to everyone, regardless of whether you’re a citizen here. So, when Juan says

JUAN

It’s a tough situation. It’s a really tough situation. But at the same time, if you’re on a visa, you have to respect what the country is telling you to do. 

COLBY

The law is that you, as an international student, are allowed to protest, if you want. 

Anyway, this assumption — that in the case of Fordham the visa turmoil was because the student had protested — that was a widespread belief.

LEE

Oh it didn’t say why they got revoked. So, I guess they did something wrong. Yeah, that’s my guess. Yeah

COLBY

That’s Lee. International student from China. 

And here’s Michael Magazine, a student activist. He told us that from where he sat, there was a very prevalent sense of fear. 

MICHAEL

And particularly because we saw that some of the first students targeted by ICE were people who had positions — not just on Palestine — but just in general student protesters and student activists.

COLBY

That was the connection these students made. Nationally, visa revocations are happening to pro-Palestine activists.

And so if a visa revocation came to Fordham, it’s likely that it affected a student activist.

But as we uncovered in our first chapter, these weren’t revocations. At least not at first.

So, if they were something other than a visa revocation, were they aimed at someone other than a pro-Palestinian activist?

We took this question to two of the professors who were on the tiger team with Fordham admin. 

Professor Carey Kasten:

COLBY

They weren’t pro-Palestinian activists? 

CAREY

They were not pro-Palestinian activists.

...

Nothing with their social media accounts or anything. 

COLBY

And Professor Annika Hinze:

ANNIKA

I am not aware that any of them were involved in any protest, at all. 

COLBY

Really! How do you know that? 

ANNIKA

I think that was discussed. I think somebody might have asked that question. 

COLBY

Now, Annika did stipulate. This is just as far as she knows.

ANNIKA

This doesn’t mean that they weren’t involved. But first of all, these protests weren’t very big, at Fordham. I’m not aware that, you know, in the Lincoln Center protests that got broken up by police, there were any international students involved. 

And yeah, I’m not aware that any of these students — again, I’m not aware. Don’t take, you know, this is not a fact, but not to my knowledge, no. 

COLBY

This is a hard question to answer. That’s because we have not been able to actually make contact with — or interview — any of the Fordham students personally, directly affected by these governmental actions. 

So, we’re getting our answers from the members of the Tiger Team. Or from what Fordham is willing to tell us.

But there’s one more reason we think the students targeted at Fordham were not pro-Palestinian activists. And here it is. 

In the first email students got about this stuff — remember that from Chapter 1? Fordham President Tania Tetlow said that the student had been affected…

MICHAEL

Without

SOPHIA

Without

AMAL

Without

ZUZA

Without

REGINA

Without explanation

ANON

Without explanation

ANNAMARIE

Without explanation and without notice

COLBY

And when we interviewed President Tetlow for this story in October last year, she took it one step further.

TETLOW

Well the first question we had was: What’s going on here? Is there a reason for it? And we couldn’t find one. We couldn’t discern one. And none was neither offered or given. 

COLBY

Couldn’t find or discern a reason. Were these students targeted because of pro-Palestinian activism? As far as we can tell, according to these professors, and Fordham Admin, the answer is: No.

But this angle — the pro-Palestine activism — that still does matter to our story.

There was a big pro-Palestinian Gaza Solidarity encampment protest at Fordham in 2024.

And while it wasn't the reason for the visa turmoil at Fordham, it still set the stage for that series of events. 

The 2024 spring encampment at Fordham’s Lincoln Center campus. 

A day full of chants, and arguments.

It’s a day you have to understand to make sense of the distrust that lingered on campus going into last spring. 

As best as we can tell, that protest was not the cause of the SEVIS terminations. But the day itself — and the way Fordham handled it  — left many students with a lasting sense of fear and uncertainty. 

That day, revisited. In just a minute. 

You’re listening to REVOKED? Our show today is divided into three acts.

Act 1 — the encampment begins. 

Act 2 — arrests on campus.

And Act 3 — the effects of that day, including a presidential email, and a lot of differing opinions.

I’m your host Colby McCaskill. 

This is: Chapter 2: “Is There A Reason For It?”

COLBY

Okay. Act 1

I do want to clarify a few things before we get to our encampment coverage. 

First of all: This podcast is not the place for you to learn about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in depth. We want to make sure that you’re informed. And understand it in a broad sense.

And so for our purposes, it’s important to know three things.

One. There is a complex history here. Israeli-Palestinian relations are shaped by competing claims to the same land. Israel’s establishment after World War 2 displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. They call it a communal tragedy, or a Nakba. As a result of the Six-Day War in the late 60s, Israel captured more land: including the West Bank and Gaza. 

Two. October 7, 2023. That was the day Hamas attacked Southern Israel. That was a day filled with death. More than 1200 Israelis were killed and Hamas took 251 people hostage. Afterward, Israel declared War on Hamas, and began bombing the Gaza strip.

Three. This conflict spurred campus protests — almost immediately. There were Pro-Israel protests. There were Pro-Palestinian protests.

By Spring 2024 — six months after October 7th — the Associated Press reported that the conflict had killed around 33,000 Palestinians, two thirds of which were women or children. Those numbers are from the Palestinian health officials. In the years since, that death toll has about doubled.

By the Spring of 2024, the Associated Press said 80% of Gazans had been displaced. And at least a million were close to starving.

By the Spring of 2024, more and more pro-Palestinian student protesters in the States, started using a sit-in-tactics to push for Boycotts, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel.

At the end of the Spring semester that year — a year before the visa turmoil — that movement flared at Fordham.

DAN

Yeah, so I came to Lincoln Center pretty early. I was living in the Bronx at the time. I took the Ram Van down probably about 8 O’clock. Arrived around 8:30. And I saw a bunch of signs on the window.

COLBY

This is Dan. Dan McDermott.

DAN

I’m Dan McDermott.

...

And I’m a former Fordham student, I graduated spring of 2024. 

COLBY

Dan was there the day of the encampment protest. 

DAN

Yeah, so I walk in. I was coming in. I was studying. Had a couple exams. Yeah, this was around finals time. I think I had my first final actually this day. 

COLBY

Yeah, it was late in the semester. 

DAN

Definitely late, I think it was May 1st. 

COLBY

Dan and I actually met for the first time that fateful day. We both covered the protest for The Fordham Observer, which is the student newspaper at Lincoln Center. 

We took pictures side by side as the scene unfolded. But I’ve never actually heard him tell the story of his whole day until we talked again for this interview.

The other voices you’ll hear are part of Fordham’s Students for Justice in Palestine group. Or sometimes we’ll refer to them with the acronym SJP.

One of those activists is Michael, student climate activist. Pro-Palestine demonstrator. You heard from him earlier.

MICHAEL

I knew it was going to happen, personally. 

...

How did I know? I — some of the end of how it was coming about. I knew some of the people who were doing it. And they reached out.

COLBY

Also Amal, that student activist you heard from last chapter. That’s not her real name. She asked us to keep her name confidential so that she could talk candidly about her involvement in SJP. 

And we agreed. 

She was a part of the encampment as well.

AMAL

So, a group of students meet early in the morning, with a lot of our belongings. 

...

Because we don’t know how long the encampment will last. Some schools lasted two weeks. Fordham lasted nine hours.

COLBY

And, finally, Kenny Moll.

KENNY

My name is Kenny Moll. 

...

Environmental Studies student. And I was among the group of protesters at the encampment in May of 2024. 

COLBY

Kenny was really in there until the bitter end.

But I’m getting ahead of myself. These five voices — Me, Dan, Michael, Amal and Kenny — we’re going to take you through this consequential series of events.  

Also, to be clear, we fact checked this. And we gave Fordham Admin opportunity to respond to detailed questions about this story.

For the bits of narration about experience — how these sources felt about this day — we’re taking their word on it. 

But in terms of claims of fact about the protest that day, we’re only playing the parts of the interviews that we can vouch for.

Or, when the facts are disputed over a given piece of information, we’ll tell you, and play both sides.

Our research and reporting goes deeper than just the three activists and Dan the photographer. I was there that day, and saw a lot of this with my own eyes. 

I was outside the building — but there were some professors who were inside, watching, and recording videos. Protest observers, essentially. The way the New York Civil Liberties Union might have people watch and record protests. They took pictures and videos, and later made them available through a public google photos folder. I’ve reviewed them all, in order to help verify the claims made by our sources. And we’ll be using the audio from them in the background of this story, to help immerse you in this event.

Here’s Michael, to take us to daybreak.

MICHAEL

Okay, so morning starts. In that morning, I woke up, I was like: cool, encampment day. Got whatever I needed to eat.

AMAL

I told my parents, like: Hey, this is what’s happening. I’m going to join the encampment. My dad was like: Good job, go ahead. And my Mom was like: Be careful. She helped me pack my bags. She made me pack weird stuff. 

MICHAEL

You know, I checked, brought all the stuff I needed for class. I was like: There’s probably a chance I go to class after this.

AMAL

She made me pack towels, like mini towels. I’m like: I’m not going to need this. I’m not going to need mini towels.

...

And she was like: No, you might. She packed hand-sanitizer and extra masks. She was like thinking of things that I wasn’t thinking about.

COLBY

Dan, the photographer, had gotten to campus just after the protesters had begun setting up the encampment.

DAN

Later on, I had heard that they had gathered, some of them had gathered in the Bronx. Like early in the morning. 5am. And came down together. First Ram Van or something. Yeah.

AMAL

So, you know, we have our backpacks packed. Our dufflebags, and our tents. And we go into Fordham. I forgot what time, I think it was like 8 AM.

COLBY

That’s about right, by the way. A faculty member later said that the encampment began at 7:49 AM. Fordham attests that it was 7:45 AM. Either way, around 8 is correct.

AMAL

We just all run into campus and we start setting up our encampment. 

I’m laughing because, like, in the moment, it was very serious. But now that I think about it, it’s kind of funny. Because I think it was a very important moment for Fordham, and for the future of Fordham. But I think that in my head, Fordham is so behind. Just because — when I think about how long we lasted, as opposed to other schools — Fordham’s reaction right away. I just think that we’re so behind. 

COLBY

The facts around who was a part of this encampment are a little disputed. The student protesters, like Kenny, say definitively,

KENNY

Every single person that was a part of the encampment was either a current student or alumni of Fordham.

COLBY

But Fordham told us they, quote, “believed that some of the people were students but we can’t say with absolute certainty.”

 Anyway, the protesters are not quite sure how long this would last. 

KENNY

Yeah, I mean, I personally thought there was a chance we could be there for a week. Or more than a week.

MICHAEL

We didn’t know what was going to happen with it. We didn’t know how long it was going to be up for. We didn’t know what Fordham was going to be — what their response.

DAN

It seemed like at first it was just gonna kind of go on for — I don’t know. I didn’t expect it to go on indefinitely. But I was surprised at how tolerant they were. I guess they figured their hands were kind of tied — and that they also need to consult legal, head of public safety, and what not.

KENNY

I’m a runner myself, so I was, selfishly, like: When am I going to get my daily runs in. Am I going to be able to lead the school and come back —?

MICHAEL

Some encampments, people get pepper sprayed, tear gassed out. So I was like: I’m going to be here as a potential medic capacity, as needed. I’m not aiming to get arrested, personally. I don’t know what’s going to happen, though, so we’ll see what happens. My job is just to hope that people stay safe, and make sure that they do stay safe.

AMAL

We go into Fordham. We start packing up. And then we start chanting.

COLBY

This is the sound from some of the videos those professors took of the encampment.

DAN

It was definitely loud. A little loud for 8:30 in the morning. But I understood it. Everyone was kind of — like this was a pretty big moment in student protests. Everybody at the university was aware of it. Both sides of the issue, everyone was talking about it. I think people at universities across the country were kind of feeling the same way.

AMAL

And the security guard, like, he’s there. He was so funny. He was just eating breakfast. Someone had brought coffee and doughnuts for us, so we was feeding him, basically, giving him coffee, and giving him doughnuts. 

COLBY

You gave him coffee and doughnuts? He ate and drank coffee — 

AMAL

Of course [laughs]. It’s 8 AM in the morning. Like? 

COLBY

Are you serious? 

AMAL

I’m very serious. We gave him whatever breakfast that we had. 

COLBY

You’re telling me that you, and he ate it. 

AMAL

Of course. Of course he ate it. You know, like honestly —

COLBY

you’re not joking? 

AMAL

I’m not joking at all. And the thing is like, if I was a security guard, and a bunch of students just ran into the building, and started chanting and building tents, and putting up posters — he cannot do, like him as one person couldn’t do much. You know what I mean? It was a bunch of us, you know? So like, he took the breakfast. He took the coffee.

COLBY

Fordham didn’t respond to our question about that. Another way to say that is Fordham did not dispute it. But they also didn’t confirm it.

Anyway, just to make sure you can picture this in your head. The lobby of Lowenstein — that’s the main classroom building at Fordham’s Upper West Side campus in Manhattan. The lobby has this kind of alcove near the front desk. And that alcove, with big, floor to ceiling windows, is where they set up their encampment, mainly. 

When Dan and I talked, we walked through that lobby, and he explained that the tents were lined up all the way to the far end of the room.

DAN

Yeah, so it was right here. I would say there were around ten tents. I forget. They went all the way down to the end. 

COLBY

Wait, really? I thought it was just right here.

DAN

No, most of them were right here. 

...

They took up the entire right side — 

COLBY

Did you say 10 tents? 

DAN

It might have been more than that. Looking at how large this is, it was probably over a dozen.

COLBY

There were thirteen. Fordham says that and videos confirm it.

DAN

They were obviously all the same kind of tent. I think they had just bought them for this event. Yeah, they had signs on the tents. And it was very interesting.

MICHAEL

We would make sure this made as much noise as possible. Because, again, the goal is really about not just what’s happening in Palestine, but how we are complicit and involved with it over here. 

DAN

It was very loud. Especially in this space. It’s not a big space. So I think some people were startled by it. But nobody really, I mean people kind of looked. A couple people took pictures. Maybe joined in for a few minutes. And then went up the escalators and went to class.

AMAL

Other security guards came. The public safety office, they kind of came out. And they were — I think they were telling us: one of our tents was under the fire thing in Lowenstein, the hallway, the entrance. 

COLBY

There’s this big, red panel on the wall in the lobby. It’s like a control panel for the fire alarms in the building.

AMAL

And so he was like: You guys cannot do this here. And he was so annoyed. But he was just like: You can’t do this here. The fire thing. So, we moved it obviously. We don’t want a fire to happen. 

...

We went around, we put our posters up. We alerted the community, like: we’re here. Some people started coming and joining the encampment. 

DAN

So it was covering the window top to bottom, right there. And they were starting to put some around the other windows as well.

...

I mean, it was obviously centered around the issue. It was all "Free Palestine." "Disclose, Divest." Palestinian flag. 

MICHAEL

I knew that something was wrong —I knew that Fordham Admin’s response was not going to be charitable very very early on.

KENNY

What we thought was possible is that they would, at least, put in writing that they would attempt to divest from companies actively profiting and aiding in global catastrophes and war crimes and genocides abroad.

DAN

Fordham started putting tarps on the outside window. To kind of cover the signs. And then the first door they locked down was this entrance. And they said: nobody can come in this way. So they limited students coming in — that was within an hour, hour and half, I would say, of me being there.

MICHAEL

They tried to put a tarp up originally, when the encampment first came about. And it failed. They gave up.

DAN

It did start to escalate, yeah. It definitely escalated from, when I first got there, there was limited public safety. Then, I think, three, four people from public safety started coming. And they called facilities, and facilities locked up that door. 

COLBY

Dan’s pointing to a door that leads to the rest of the building. 

DAN

That was the big thing I remember. Because students were all trying to come in this way.

MICHAEL

That was drilled shut. Like, they closed it. They made sure that you couldn’t enter or exit through that one right there.

COLBY

Fordham told us they didn’t lock any of the doors that led to the rest of campus. But they did post Public Safety officers in the corridors. And, as I remember, yellow tape across some doorways.

DAN

I think they had an officer, one or two officers — 

COLBY

NYPD? 

DAN

Yeah. By at least 10, 10 in the morning probably.

MICHAEL

And then they closed the double doors, that are normally open, lead to the tunnel. 

AMAL

And then, you know, they start closing entrances. Students are trying to bring us water bottles and other materials that we might need. And so they start blocking entrances to the stairwells. And like different ways that people can come in and out.

DAN

It was foreseeable that they were going to get locked in here. I kind of knew it wasn’t going to last very long. But they shut it down really quick. And yeah they weren’t kind to anybody that was in here. A few other people had tried to leave as well, and they gave them a hard time.

COLBY

Fordham insisted to us that it closed entrances into the building. That they didn’t want anyone else to join the encampment. But that these protesters were still able to leave.

Here’s one of their comments, quote:

"The notion of 'locking doors' is misleading, as only entry into Lowenstein was locked and restricted. Anyone could leave, anytime."

And some protesters did leave. Fordham says 48 people were a part of the initial group that set up the encampment. And videos show how, as the day wore on, less and less people were present.

So, these protesters are there, inside Fordham, chanting, speaking out —

AMAL

But also hoping that the University that we attend and we pay to go to aligns with our values. And with something so heavy like a genocide, we would hope you would take us seriously when you tell us you don’t want to pay for it.

COLBY

By the way, a recent United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry concluded, last fall, that that is an accurate description of the situation in the Gaza strip

AMAL

It’s not a crazy phenomenon to say we don’t want to pay for genocide. We don’t want to pay to ruin the environment. We don’t want to pay for death. That’s not what we want. 

COLBY

And outside, more and more people are showing up in support. And to counter-protest.

DAN

Shortly after noon, that’s when the crowd really started to build out there. 

COLBY

Dan told me how there were people everywhere. Spilling out over the sidewalk, sitting on the roof.

DAN

Yeah until at least noon, or one O’clock, they were like all around up here. Some of them, participating. Some of them, just watching.

AMAL

People start gathering outside once they realize they can’t come in. 

MICHAEL

Outside, though, I knew, was going to be chaos. And it was. 

AMAL

At this point, Fordham is still trying to figure out what to do. Where to block off. How to do it. They hadn’t even gotten all the barriers yet. More public safety officers come in. 

DAN

Yeah, there was definitely a group — with an American flag, and a group with a pro-Israel flag. They had a couple groups from the Neturei Karta, I think that’s what they’re called.

COLBY

Neturei Karta — they’re a group that has shown up to lot these pro-Palestine protests. They were founded in 1938. They’re a group of Jewish anti-Zionists. They call for the end of the state of Israel.

DAN

And then some of the pro-Israel protesters started to get into it with them pretty intensely.

AMAL

At this one, there was a large, large crowd of people. It was not just Fordham students. It was community members, faculty, staff, it was such a large community outside. And I think it was very telling as to what is possible at Fordham. Because, you know, our rallies are not huge. But that rally in particular was huge. It was on both sides of the building. 

MICHAEL

We had people show up that were like Zionists — not even from the Fordham community.

...

We had like news outlets there, there was like police there. Yeah, there was a lot of different moving parts.

COLBY

Oh my gosh, do you remember the guy from NewsMax?  

DAN

Yeah, he was there. There’s also a guy from Real America Voice. He was there. 

COLBY

I think that’s the one I remember. 

DAN

Yeah he was very inflammatory.

COLBY

The guy who was from Real America Voice is Ben Bergquam. He’s a big MAGA supporter.

BEN BERGQUAM

They’ve actually taken over the glass building. They’ve actually put tents up. They put tents up inside the building. They’re occupying the building with tents. So stupid, guys. So, so stupid. This is the Left. This is the Left. This is where your tax dollars are going. This is where your education money is going.

NICK SHIRLEY

I’m in New York City right now, standing outside of a Palestine protest. I want to know if they actually why they are protesting. And see if they can give me any good answers.

COLBY

And this is Nick Shirley. He’s a right-wing News influencer. Posts videos online about current events. He was at the protest outside the Fordham encampment as well.

NICK SHIRLEY

What are you out here protesting? 

PROTESTER

No comment.

...

NICK SHIRLEY

Why are you guys out here today? 

PROTESTER

Speak to the organizers. 

NICK SHIRLEY

Why can’t I — I wanted to ask you though. 

PROTESTER

Official statements from the organizers. 

NICK SHIRLEY

In the simplest terms, why are you guys protesting? 

...

NICK SHIRLEY

Why are you guys here today? 

PROTESTER

We’re not interested in speaking with you.

COLBY

Tensions are high. Not only politically — internationally. But right here on this block. People are on edge. And yeah, there’s some yelling back and forth. 

DAN

There were Strategic Response Group pretty much around this whole building — like with batons and helmets on, just blocking this all off. 

COLBY

The Strategic Response Group is like a special division of the NYPD. They’re often deployed to events like this one. Protests. Or sometimes parades. 

 The New York Civil Liberties Union has called to disband them because of, in their words, the Strategic Response Group’s “biased,” “violent” and “racist” tactics.

DAN

Yeah, they had the visors down. I mean, there were kids just kind of piled up against the barricades. Some little altercations. And they were around the outside of the crowd too. So, it wasn’t a full kettling situation. But the crowd was definitely contained. And it was difficult to move through the crowd. They were really pushing everyone together.

COLBY

I mean just listen to this exchange. Between some protesters and a cop.

COP

You have an exit at both sides. 

PROTESTER A

We’re trying to figure out what’s going on.

PROTESTER B

Push it back. Push it back.

COLBY

The officer is standing next to a barricade. He’s wanting to move it, so that it blocks off more access to the rest of the sidewalk.

PROTESTER B

There’s more barricades back there. There's 50 more barricades outside McMahon. You can get — you can get a fuck ton more.

...

There is so many people behind me, look!

COP

You got an exit at both ends. You got an exit at both ends. You got an exit at both ends.

...

Who’s stopping you from leaving?

COLBY

He’s haggling back and forth with the protesters. You know? I gotta move it. But I can keep a little bit of a gap. 

PROTESTER B

Then just push it back. Then just push it back.

COP

Here you go. You guys are happy now?

...

The problem is, you guys are going to start spilling out.

COLBY

One protester is yelling —

PROTESTER C

We’re allowed to be here, bitch. Move it. We’re allowed to be here, bitch. Move it.

COLBY

Eventually the police officer leaves a little gap.  Not a lot. And some aren’t happy.

COP

Alright. I can go up to here.

PROTESTER D

Oh, wow. Wow. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

COLBY

At 1:30 in the afternoon, the professors inside the building watch as protesters are told, I’m quoting now, “that they had one hour to exit the building without penalty. They would face suspension from the university if they stayed.”

That’s according to a document those professors wrote out after all this went down. I’m going to tell you more about that in just a few minutes. You can also find it on our website if you want to look at it yourself.

DAN

And the University kind of said you’re going to get arrested if you stay here. We have the Strategic Response Group here. You’re causing a disturbance to classes. 

And yeah, they gave them a deadline. A timeline of when they had to leave. And the time came. And things were getting roudier and roudier outside. More people from outside groups coming in. They were fighting with each other. There were journalists from all different sides. It was starting to get intense.

COLBY

It was starting to crescendo. Stick around.

COLBY

Welcome back to REVOKED? This is Act II. We’re looking at the May Day 2024 encampment protest. 

Just a reminder: the Fordham students affected by the SEVIS-terminations and visa revocations, were not pro-Palestine protesters, as far as we can tell. 

But this event still shaped student perception of the Fordham Administration. Mostly, truly, because of what’s about to happen. Here’s Kenny Moll. Student protester who was there that day.

KENNY

Yeah, so, a series of threats were made on the students in the encampment — that we would be arrested, we would be suspended. That we would be physically taken out of the premises.

We had a mediator, who helped us facilitate the conversation with administration — where we laid out our demands. How we wanted fiscal visibility. How we wanted them to disclose where their investments are going, so we can get a better sense of what needed to change, and what needed to be more socially responsible in the future.

My commitment was to the encampment. And to getting our demands met. And I was willing to — I was willing to put myself in a position of getting arrested — if it meant taking the most meaningful action to get those demands met.

DAN

I remember just watching through the glass. The first thing I remember happening was they issued suspensions.

AMAL

They gave them suspension letters. And they held up the suspension letters at the window so we can see it. 

DAN

The students kind of demonstrated that by putting them up against the glass. So I got a photo of that, the suspension paper.

COLBY

The professors also got a picture of the document as well. It said that the participants in the encampment had committed four different violations of the University Code of Conduct. And that they were no longer allowed on campus.

AMAL

Some of them were very, very, visibly nervous. Some of them were more like — some of them were alumni, so they were more like: We’re not going to get expelled or anything. And it’s okay if we get banned from campus. Because, what else did we expect. 

MICHAEL

The NYPD starts staging. This is when they bring in the people who are eventually going to form — just consider them the arrest team, right?

AMAL

So, we had roles. We had roles of like, your level. So it would be like Green, Yellow, Pink, and Red. And red essentially means that you understood, and you were willing to get arrested. I was pink, so I was staying up to the very point that arrests — or being charged with something — was imminent. And the second that we were told that the police are coming, and they are going to start arresting — 

...

that’s when all the people who were labeled pink, 

COLBY

Like her, left.

The sound you’re hearing now is from those videos the professors took during the arrests.

DAN

And then a small group, 15 to 20 Strategic Response officers, went in with the visors down, helmets on, batons and everything. 

COLBY

Through the front doors? 

DAN

Through the front doors. The university had opened them. The administration had opened them. 

COLBY

Fordham says they did not use the front doors.

AMAL

And the NYPD just kind of came in, grabbed their arms, and tied them up.

KENNY

We had made the decision to face the windows. And face the outside protesters that were supporting us from beyond the lobby — while the arrest happened and we linked arms. 

...

And I just remember hearing the sound of them throwing the tents that we had set up. Throwing the art that we had set up. I looked behind me and I saw them kicking over student’s backpacks and throwing the tents around. Which was completely unnecessary. You know, obviously, I think they were looking for more students that might have been hiding. 

COLBY

In a press-release later that week, Fordham would say that, quote, “NYPD officers took them into custody peacefully and without incident.”

Dan, the photographer, is outside at this point, watching through the windows with the rest of the crowd.

DAN

And they went in, and they took the remaining protesters. Just kind of grabbed them, put them in zip-tie cuffs, and took them out the back.

KENNY

I was manhandled pretty hard.

AMAL

Took them basically. And they didn’t take them through that entrance. They went through a completely different entrance.

COLBY

Because it was clear, if they come out this way, there’s going to be some bad stuff going down. 

DAN

I actually think they took them out the other side. I don’t think they took them in this loading dock. I think it was, I forget. Over there. By the law school.

COLBY

Michael is also outside at this point. He’s watching all this happen to his friends.

MICHAEL

At that moment in time, I had two very strong emotions, one of severe disgust. 

...

It was disgust because, that’s like the lowest of the low to do, as an academic institution. This is Fordham University. You know, Cura Personalis. Care for the whole person. We put all these buzz words and terms and phrases on everything we do, and we talk so much about this Ramily. And they go forward with something no other University, I’ve seen, has done, what Fordham did. Where they bring down the tarp, they do this covert, secrecy operation on the arrest. 

...

That was so thoroughly thought out, it wasn’t something that just came about in the moment, that meant Fordham had more contingencies to fight against students, than to protect students’ rights, and freedom of speech, and what have you.

KENNY

It was really hard to see that we were defined as potentially dangerous. Outside agitators. When the most dangerous thing about what happened that day was Fordham inviting police force onto campus.

MICHAEL

For that moment, to see both of that happen, I was concerned about what’s going to happen to my friends? 

What’s going to happen to Kenny? What’s going to happen to all the folks that are getting arrested? But also, this is so disgusting that Fordham had this well-crafted and thought-out plan on what to do. 

COLBY

I mean, this is exactly why we thought it was necessary to dedicate a whole episode to this protest. 

Michael wasn’t personally affected by the visa turmoil, but it was Michael and other student activists that helped influence Fordham’s handling of the visa situation. This day, these protests, these arrests, all instilled a sense of distrust of Fordham admin in Michael and students like him. 

15 people were arrested that day on Fordham premises. That’s not disputed by either Fordham or the professors. 5:38 PM is when the professors say the arrests took place. 

And then, in the matter of a few minutes, maybe fifteen to twenty, it was over. The crowd tried to find where the cops were exiting the building. But nothing really came of it. The NYPD took the encampment group downtown to One Police Plaza. Eventually, people went home. 

Then came the infamous post-arrest email. That’s in a minute. Right after this.

COLBY

Welcome back. This is REVOKED? Chapter 2. We’ve made it to Act III

It’s just after 7 PM that day, May 1st, 2024. The Fordham community receives an email from President Tania Tetlow. We have a copy if you want to read the whole thing yourself. You can find in on our website. 

It essentially informs the community of what just happened. But much of the language is heavily disputed by the protesters themselves, and the professors members who watched the protest from inside the building.

I want to read you parts of the email first, and then we’ll get into the places where there’s differing opinions. 

To begin, President Tetlow writes:

TETLOW EMAIL

Dear Fordham Community,

This morning, the wave of protests and encampments spreading across the country came to our campus at Lincoln Center. Several dozen people pushed inside the lobby of the Lowenstein building and set up tents. After threats of conduct sanctions, most left. The remaining protesters refused to identify themselves or whether they were members of our community. After several warnings, NYPD arrested fifteen people for misdemeanor trespassing. We believe some of those were Fordham students.

COLBY

She continues.

TETLOW EMAIL

We draw the line at intrusions into a classroom building, especially by people who are not members of our community.

COLBY

And then, Tetlow writes,

TETLOW EMAIL

Know that we have increased security at both campuses, to strengthen the walls and gates that allow us to avoid outside intrusion at this moment. And also know that we remain committed to permitting peaceful protests that still allow the rest of our student body to continue their studies.

COLBY

So, the Faculty members that watched that protest happen in front of their eyes, they wrote a letter refuting a lot of the language in this email. And one of the things they pointed out is that the phrase “pushed inside” gives the impression that this event was forceful. Or violent. And the faculty members disagree. 

The student protesters also disagree with that characterization. 

They say they were sharing donuts and coffee with the security guard at the desk. They moved a tent when asked to because of fire safety. 

KENNY

Aside from making some noise — I don’t know how anyone could say what we were doing was not peaceful.

COLBY

And then there’s the language that implies these protesters were not students.

TETLOW EMAIL

We draw the line at intrusions into a classroom building, especially by people who are not members of our community.

COLBY

But Kenny says

KENNY

No, no. Every single person that was a part of the encampment was either a current student or alumni of Fordham.

COLBY

And Michael adds

MICHAEL

Every single person that participated in the Fordham encampment was a member of the Fordham community. 

When I say a member of the Fordham community, Fordham defines what is a member of their community. If you work at Fordham you’re part of our community. If you’re a current student at Fordham, you’re a part of our community. If you’re a former student at Fordham, you’re a part of our community.

COLBY

Amal also says that

AMAL

From my knowledge, everyone that was inside, was either a Fordham student or a Fordham alum, or somehow affiliated with Fordham now or in the past.  

COLBY

Look, there are many ways to explain arrests to the student body. 

One way is to say the protesters didn’t follow university policy. They themselves admit that.

KENNY

No, we didn’t adhere to those. We didn’t clear it before hand.

COLBY

And so Fordham facilitated arrests to remove them from campus. 

But another way is to describe the situation as involving outside actors. Or to say that the protest was unsafe. And that’s why Fordham facilitated arrests. 

Those are pretty different ways of framing the same event. 

And in its message, the Fordham administration, including President Tetlow, leaned toward that second explanation. That the encampment was by outsiders. That she was worried they would rush further into campus, or break the windows.

But that framing — that’s what’s disputed by the professors who were watching, and the protesters involved. 

In a formal response, that group of professors wrote:

“The protest inside LL was peaceful throughout. Those involved did not block the flow of Fordham community members in or out of LL. They did not threaten or enact violence. In a tense time when leaders must take every precaution to communicate based on facts without speculation, the public letter issued by President Tetlow provided inaccurate and misleading information to the Fordham community.”

Both the sight of arrests on campus, and that email — you know, it did affect the way the Fordham community viewed the administration.

DAN

I had some opinions about the administration and the direction things were heading at the university. But this kind of soured it even more.

COLBY

This is Dan, the photographer.

DAN

Fordham handled it a little bit more intensely than Columbia. 

COLBY

Really?  

DAN

— took it more seriously than Columbia did. 

COLBY

Do you remember the big Hamilton Hall takeover? 

DAN

Of course, I was there. I saw it. I have some photos of that as well. But — 

COLBY

We handled it worse? 

DAN

That happened after weeks. This didn’t even last a full day. It lasted less than 10 hours, 8 hours, it lasted. But it was lasting for weeks at other universities. And it wasn’t the same case here.

...

I also understand some of the reasons they can’t allow that to happen. It is disruptive. This was approaching finals. There were a lot of students who I heard: Why is this going on during finals?

COLBY

Even so, Dan said that for those arrests to happen on campus, that —

DAN

Was just deeply unsettling to a lot of people.

COLBY

Here’s another student, Regina. She’s a senior this year.

REGINA

The email afterwards, that came out of Tetlow just saying: Oh, they were banging on the walls.

...

This was a safety hazard, at this point. When I think everyone who was there knew that it was very much a safe and secure protest. So, I guess, in that way, I wasn’t very surprised. And I kind of figured Fordham would react like this. But it was just disappointing.

COLBY

And this is AnnaMarie. She’s Catholic, and these arrests really rocked her on a personal, faith level.

ANNAMARIE

Everything from the previous May, definitely, was like my awakening of a flawed administration. My awakening of like: Do we really live out our jesuit values? Because, after the encampment, a bunch of students — groups on campus and clubs — said like: You say we uphold these jesuit values. Well these protesters were holding up these Jesuit values. They really believed them. You arresting them is hypocritical. 

COLBY

But chew on this. One of the professors that witnessed the encampment from inside Fordham that day was Carey Kasten. She’s the professor that was eventually asked to join the Tiger Team! So, she saw all this happen. And she wrote that letter that directly contradicted President Tetlow. 

But she told me that she has seen some real change since that May Day encampment in 2024.

CAREY

I think there has been a lot of growth and movement. I understand why that wound hasn’t healed for the students. There was a lot of trust broken on that day. But I do think the President’s office has done a lot to try and open up lines of communication since then. 

...

I think she did a really great job last year showing up to talk to faculty and listen to faculty. //

...

But I also think she — I think she learned a lot from that experience. I think she listens. I really do. She — listen, she’s not perfect. But I do think that she has really tried to listen since May 1st.

...

I think the university has said: there were people who were trying to make sure — not justice was served. But I don’t think that my presence, or Leo Guardado’s presence there was seen, in retrospect, as a threat. And I think there has been a real attempt to work together.

COLBY

You know, that’s her perspective on this, that’s been shaped by months of additional interactions with the Fordham Admin.

CAREY

I also admit that I have a skewed view, because the first — so I joined the faculty senate. And the first senate meeting was May 2nd. 

COLBY

That is, the day right after the protest.

CAREY

And the president comes to all the faculty meetings. And so senators get a private audience, right? She gives a report. I don’t think I fully understood that, but it does give you a kind of up-close and personal view.

COLBY

Carey told me that the May 2nd faculty senate meeting was short. But in it, she was asked to write up her experience from the protest. That’s the impetus for that public letter she wrote refuting President Tetlow’s email. 

But then, after that meeting, there was like a faculty mixer, a little party. And President Tetlow was there. 

And so almost immediately after this event happened — almost immediately after Tetlow’s email was sent out — Carey got to see the president in person, as just another human, enjoying a cocktail hour.

Now, that’s a very different experience from the student perspective. Students are more insulated from interactions with administration.

And that lack of personal connection can kind of mean the difference between seeing Fordham Admin as fallible — or already fallen. 

For the student activists paying a lot of attention, that fateful afternoon in the beginning of May was a demonstration of priorities: Order over Ideals. Status Quo instead of Standing Up.

And then there was that procedure that Fordham used in order to facilitate arrests of Pro-Palestinian activists. First, suspensions. Then, allowing law enforcement onto campus. And finally delivering contested information via email. 

For these student activists, that seemed like it could be a very effective way to facilitate more arrests — this time, of international students.

Here’s how Michael thought about it:

MICHAEL

the very mechanism by which an ICE raid would occur was established and was built by Fordham in their response to student protesters. The very same lack of transparency. The lack of information. The side-stepping. The tarp that they tried to hide — they created a culture of secrecy —

COLBY

I mean, that’s a serious fear. Michael was genuinely considering that Fordham might try to use the same strategy from 2024 in the era of the visa turmoil of 2025.

One of the things this series of events really did — to these Fordham activists — is that it placed in their minds the scene of arrests on campus. 

And that means when the visa turmoil happened not even a year later, in 2025, this was top of mind.

MICHAEL

Visas are being revoked. The first thing that comes into my mind is: Fordham is completely incapable of handling this. Students are not going to be supported by Fordham in the way that they should.

AMAL

When I saw the email, and I saw the student’s visa was revoked, I felt very — almost a little bit hopeless. Which isn’t really good. It’s not a good feeling to feel, and in this kind of space. 

I felt like this is like it. I don’t know how this student is going to come back from this. Like, I don’t know what’s going to happen. And it was my counter-parts, on SJP, that were like: We can do this. We can talk to these people. We can figure this out. And so through that, you know, I gained some hope. 

But when I saw that email, for me, everything that happened with the encampment kind of made it seem like there’s not — what is going to happen? This is it for this person, right?

COLBY

Whether they agreed with the choice to arrest or not, now it was a possibility. Next chapter we’re going to watch as Fordham deals with this visa turmoil as it unfolds really fast. And we’ll bring you into some of the questions Fordham is trying to sort through:

 How would it frame this issue to students in all-school communication going forward?

 How hard would it work to keep law enforcement off campus?

 Would it facilitate arrests of Fordham students, again?

 That’s next time, on REVOKED?